The magic shop mystery
One thing that has always confused me in D&D games is the existence of “magic shops.” Not shops that sell things that may be useful to Wizards, or even potion shops, but full-blown magic shops that can provide PCs with whatever they need. +3 battle axe? No problem. Chain mail +2? Right here!
I wonder where these items come from. Who makes them? How can they have so many in stock? My mind imagines a workshop full of wizards somewhere, churning out +2 daggers. It just does not make sense. Only powerful wizards could realistically create these items, and there aren’t so many of them in most games. And on top if that — why would they do so?
One way to put it is this: Imagine that in your game, the civilized population (PC-like races) is the same as Europe today. This is doubtful, but let’s say it’s true. That’s about 730 million. Add a similar population of fantastic sentient creatures that could conceivably enchant items. You’ve now got 1.5 billion.
How common are people of at-least-PC power, in the reality of your game? Maybe one in a million? Assuming zero population growth of the previous thousand years (another unlikely assumption) and you’ve got no more than 1500 people at any one time of PC-like power or above. How many are Wizards? One in four? OK, we’re down to 400. How many of these 400 spend their time doing this? How much of their time?
You can see that magical item sweatshops are some way off. And if the numbers do work in your game, what does that mean? Does every 1st level fighter guard get some +3 chain mail and a +2 longsword when they report to duty? If you have your fantasy arms factories, shouldn’t there be corresponding Americas and Russians buying up all the good stuff, leaving your weaker nations to muddle along with weaker non-magical weapons? Is there a magical Halliburton? A magical Google selling crystal balls?
And why does the Prince not have a magical longsword, if they’re available in town?
All these considerations not only play against the concept of the magic shop, but also really end up playing down the idea of magic items in the game at all — thinking it through actually makes them way too rare. Luckily, there are other good ways to have magical items originate, which add character to both the game and the items themselves:
Osmosis
Osmosis is my favourite way of designing a magic item. In a fantasy world, a Wizard does not need to enchant things — some things will enchant themselves. If an old knight was famed for killing dragons, his sword (never enchanted) could easily be a Dragonslayer: +4, double damage against dragons. The sword has killed so many dragons, it has become good at dragon slaying, regardless of who is using it.
Whenever you’re introducing a magical item, it’s useful to consider osmosis. At the very least, you give the item an interesting story. Sometimes, there’s an old owner out there who may want it back. Osmosis also has the benefit of being as rare or common as you like — fully adjustable to the amount of magic in your game.
Gift of the Gods
In a game where the gods interact with mortals, they surely give them gifts from time to time. I enjoy these best when these are double-edged. Great power, but often not doing exactly what the owner wants. In real-world mythology, stories about the gods often have a moral attached. That moral twist makes a gift from the gods into a powerful artifact best handled with care.
Enchanted by Wizards
Yes, that very same thing that I complained about earlier. But here’s the twist: Why would a Wizard create a magical item? Surely they can cast their own spells, and such? I come up with three reasons:
First, curiosity. The Wizard was exploring some avenue of arcana, and creating devices either to use in the exploration, or as the exploration itself. These are best if they are bizarre and the PCs have trouble figuring out what actual use they are. There should be some trial and error.
Second, as a commission. Much as the real world aristocracy would commission works of art, so would a those in a fantasy world commission a piece of Wizardry that they can then carry around with themselves. These will usually be very showy.
Third, as a gift. A wizard visiting a court may give gifts to the royal family. They may give a gift to a friend. They may enchant a sword for a specific purpose to give to a hero heading out on a quest. These will often have very specific, non-military powers, and can be very personal in nature.
I have additional ideas, but to describe them is (in part) to describe the plot twists that they may empower. Given that I’m in the midst of a game and counting some of my plot twists to manifest themselves, these will have to be saved for a future post.
Using methods such as these to explain the origin of magical items tends to make the game more enjoyable, and I find that it is usually worth the extra effort. While there is no getting away from referring to the bonuses they provide in a D&D game, these things make magical items special, mystical and unique. Each one has a story and a history. They may have powers that nobody knows about, or nobody realises, and each PC may wonder if one of their items will become magical by osmosis at some point.
Finally, what does this do to the magic shop? It does not eliminate it, because magical items will still be bought and sold, but it does change its nature — magical items are more like works of art. They are sold by auction houses, private collectors, and fences who are experts in the trafficking of stolen magic items.
And the trip to the magic store just became much more interesting.
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Magic shops are useful not only in PC games, but also in real life! There are so many magicians who buy all the stuff they need for their shows from these magic shops! There are many funny and interesting things you can find in a magic shop. For example, I learned a lot of magic tricks from a book I bought from there!
I’m think you’re making one fatal flaw with your ‘no magic shops’ spiel. But several others as well. Comparing the fantasy world population to the real world population to determine how many PCs there would be hurts my brain… you’re using guesswork to boil down to an abstract number in an effort to prove a point of view; and something that has little bearing on that view.
The fantasy world isn’t only filled with humans.. nor just elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, giants, dragons, fey, demons, undead, and monstrous humaniods (to name a few that could conceivably make magical items). The occupations of these people aren’t restricted by class either; nor is their ability to make magical items solely restricted to those that take on an adventuring class.
So you’re now seeing that there could be a larger number of magical items available. Truth is, most monsters have a magical item on their person or in their possession. Nearly all classes (whether PC or NPC) will have some form of magical item. Even the basic NPCs you’ll find about town may have some heirloom of some small magic. Nobles and royalty will have some form of magic item in their possession.
So there’s really a large number of items about.
The question now becomes; how do they get them if not from a shop. Sure you could say they are made; but that’s just an extension of the shop idea; you’re just delaying the item arriving in hand (you’re having it delivered in 30 days, so to speak).
The concept of a magic item shop isn’t so bizarre. The average wage for people in the realm seems to be between a half gold to maybe 3 or so gold pieces each day. The average magic item can sell for between 12,000 and 45,000. Half of this is considered profit. By this reasoning, the shopkeeper needs only sell one item a year to be ahead by far. Factor in armed guards, overhead costs on the establishment, etc… it’s not entirely unrealistic for each city/town to have a magic shop that caters only for the occasional passing adventurer.
@Darkelven
you’re using guesswork to boil down to an abstract number in an effort to prove a point of view
Educated guesswork, yes. One makes reasonable assumptions and follows through to a conclusion. You say “the fantasy world is not only filled with …” — maybe. Maybe not. What are these mysterious other beings? What are their methods of creating magical items? Do they have a story?
And how to these things find their way onto the shelves of stores in every city and town?
I am not trying to say that magic stores are impossible for your game, and if you use them you’re stupid. I say that they are boring. Spice them up. Make them special.
You say that the “average” magic item (what is that, exactly?) can sell between 12,000 and 45,000 gp — or, using your numbers approximately 4,000 to 90,000 times the average workers daily wage.
Why have a store? Why a storefront? How does this make sense? Who shops there? Would you not sell this by building relationships with adventurers, nobility, wealthy merchants, et cetera?
Nobody would set up a shop on the basis of selling one item per year.
It’s far more interesting to look at how big ticket items valued by a small minority of people are sold in the real world, and then apply that in the game. Walking into a store and asking for a dagger +3 … well, I still say that’s boring.
@Steve
Most monsters have magic items by default. These are collected by adventurers and sold in town and the shop. That’s just one example of where they come from. Alternatives are the Adepts in towns making them, along with researching wizards (who don’t adventure for experience), ex-adventurers, etc. The fact that magic items come from ’somewhere’ should be enough of an explanation for them being in shops; that there’s a demand for them is another. To turn the question around, how do your magic items enter your fantasy world? Those answers would also apply to how/why they are in shops; that they are in the world is/should be enough.
The methods and stories for these ‘mysterious beings’ are much the same as for humans… they have arms and legs, need clothing and armour, and weapons to defend their homes. This question itself leads me to believe you’ve not really looked into the various races and beings within the DnD world. I may be wrong, but if not, then what sort of judge are you for the likeliness of magic item shops in the fantasy world? (this isn’t a challenge; and you’ve every right to participate in whatever style game works for you, the question is asked in seriousness rather than as an accusation).
And I’m somewhat upset that this needs clarification (surely you know to read peoples comments in the best light, otherwise you cannot expect to get the same in return – a common courtesy); the example of a shop only needing to sell one item per year was to explain that it only needed to sell one a year to make a profit. Not at all indicative of how many they would/should sell. The shops in each city within my campaign get quite a bit of business just from the players, let alone the other inhabitants.
The items costing several years worth of the average workers wage does coincide with the statements made within the first post; adventurers have them, nobles and royalty have them, and the common NPCs may have some passed down heirloom. It’s quite common for adventurers to have tens of thousands of gold, and walk into town where a meal costs 5 silver. The prices for common goods are ridiculously cheap when compared to magical items.
Your questions of ‘why have a store’ doesn’t really make any sense (to me; I cannot see where you’re coming from). Why not have a store; what realistic in-game excuse is there (not in terms of how a DM treats with the players, but in terms of the fantasy world and economy)? Why, where in a world there are people looking to buy magic items (and have the gold to do so) wouldn’t some NPCs have the resources to meet that demand? So why is a magic item shop so hard to grasp?
I’ve explained the dynamics of how it works, and why it works. But your final statement suggests that the concept is just boring…
Not sure of your ideas, but the magic item shops are limited in stock; they don’t sell everything. And they’re limited by the towns resources, location, population, etc. The players will pick up a range of magical items in the adventure, but those items are rarely what they’re after. They can then be sold off at maybe half price in an effort to get something that better suits them (from the available list, and what they can afford).
This way, it’s more exciting actually getting to use an item that’s beneficial to the user, rather than having to make do with whatever washes up; some characters could go through their entire lifespan without getting something truly usable by them. Some specialist characters would suffer unduly from this.
Anyhow, I hope this helps clear things up.
@Darkelven
Thanks for the feedback, and I’m sorry if you feel that I am not reading your comments in the best light possible — to tell the truth, I think our disagreements are more on taste than content, and I do like a good argument — but I do have some questions/comments:
Why do monsters have magical items by default, and where do they get them? I believe you may be entering a circular argument here. My core questions are on the creation and circulation of these items.
The answers to that, on my side, are in the original post. (I should probably stop using “Steve” and start using “Mr Topp” or something.)
Also, why did you earlier say that 50% of the cost of a magical item is pure profit? Surely if there is a brisk trade (which you seem to be implying), somebody who is willing to buy a particular item for 30,000 gp and sell it for 40,000 gp will profit far more than their competitor that buys for 25,000 and sells for 50,000.
So do you have competing stores? Do the PCs go around and get quotes? Haggle? Do they get better prices in cities, which would conceivably have competing magic shops, than they do in smaller towns where there is a monopoly? If so, how does the town’s store stay in business when the city is a teleport away?
This is why I see sellers of magic items to be more like agents or dealers — they find a buyer, and get a cut. Maybe the good ones even get 50%! The storefront is a convenient excuse — a way to turn magic items into cash, or vice-versa. Perhaps this is OK; it is certainly typical of 4th edition D&D — all about function.
As such, I have no trouble grasping the idea of a magic store. I have trouble putting it in my game. It simply does not quite belong.
Finally, in regards to the “how else would the players have magical items that suit their characters” argument — here, I would argue that this falls to the DM. Surely the DM has the power to put some thought into what falls into the players’ hands during their adventures and make sure that they add to the character and to the game. “Whatever washes up” does not have to be random. It can be whatever the DM decides; it should either fit the PC, fit the character/monster the PC is taking it from, or — ideally — both.
@Darkelven
Ah, I missed one point:
This question itself leads me to believe you’ve not really looked into the various races and beings within the DnD world.
True. Sure, I read every page of every book and supplement for 1st and 2nd editions of Dungeons and Dragons, but I don’t do that any more. They’re a bit … um … boring. I read the bits I need for my game, based on the ideas I have. Or, sometimes, something will catch my eye and I’ll take an interest on account of that.
And nobody is an expert on whether or not a magic store should exist in a fantasy world — it is, after all, a fantasy world. Conceivably anything could happen.
However, in a world where magical items are a niche industry (nobility and the adventuring public? Not a big market), and the prices are so high (many times what an average person would earn in a year), there are a couple of problems with a magic shop:
1. Low traffic. How often does someone come in? Unless you’re at some sort of grand adventuring hub, not often.
2. Few returning customers. Adventurers adventure. They’re usually out of town. How many returning customers does that generate? Customer loyalty?
And nobles? Sure, they buy their kid that fancy flaming longsword, but he only needs the one. And — in reality — the kid really wants the Vorpal Battle Axe that is traditionally weilded by the king.
…
So, sure. It’s fantasy, and there are plenty of excuses for magic shops — whether just as an in-game convenience, or as something that adds character to the game and to the fantasy world. But I still feel it doesn’t fit.
Who these people are, where they get their goods, and who they sell them to … it simply does not add up in the worlds that enter my imagination.
A personal failing, perhaps?
At the end of the day, it really just comes down to the DMs preference. Some DMs argue that magic items are scarce; no shops (but these are very few). Some argue that the shops offer every item known to man (these are just as few). Most play a system that allows players to buy magic items; whether via a shop or agent such as you’re describing, or via getting someone to make the item.
The explanation of how monsters get items is subjective.. it’s not overtly explained in the books, but can be inferred based on how the game works. They either get it from defeating the last hero that tried to vanquish him, from raiding a village, eating travellers, etc. They use magic items primarily as tools; whether the via the intended use, or as a lure to attract more prey.
The Dungeon Master’s Guide (DMG) and Magic Item Compendium (MIC) state that all towns will have items up to a limit in price that varies according to town size. How the DM wants to play this is the DMs choice. If the players like a shopping expedition where they want to find an agent, or just want the convenience of a shop; both are plausible answers to the problem. I don’t think the method matters so much as the end result; the agent/creator is another means to and end (one that a shop also caters to). But I’d argue that accepting the idea of an agent, is a step towards seeing how/why a magic item shop would work.
These two guides (DMG and MIC) also display item values; a cost for making the item, and a cost for buying the item. The buying cost nearly always (not ‘always’ because I’ve not made the effort to check every price) doubles the creation cost. The general consensus is that characters sell items at the creation cost (with some variance according to rarity/demand) and buy at around the listed value (with some variance according to rarity/demand). Some DMs will decrease the price by a half again or increase it by double depending on the influencing factors. But we can fairly readily accept the average price a character can sell an item is half what he can buy it for.
Not a personal failing, just a point of view.
I’ve got a feeling that some people get their idea of the DnD world from movies where there are no such shops. Any magic item found is rare, and passed over by some ruler to someone who is performing some vital quest that simply cannot fail. But if you play any fantasy based game, there are shops, and many of them. All the d20 based games incorporate a wide variety of shops, nearly all of them magical.
So my ‘finishing blow’ would be that if the creators of DnD incorporate it by default into their computer games, maybe it’s not so unrealistic to have them in our table top games.
@Darkelven
Finishing blow? Referencing video games? Apologies, but video games are hugely different from tabletop roleplaying games in most respects. If you want your roleplaying game to have the feel of a video game, just go out and play the video game instead.
Most play a system that allows players to buy magic items; whether via a shop or agent such as you’re describing, or via getting someone to make the item.
If magic items are sufficiently common, there will be a way to get them. Even if they are extremely scarce, it’s hard to believe that there’s nobody out there (retired heroes, et cetera) willing to part with them for sufficient cash. Ditto for item-makers. I’m sure they are happy to be paid for their effort.
Some versions of this might involve a store front somewhere. But certainly not a standard store-like operation (welcome to Walmart, wands are in aisle three!) or a magic store in every town — or even every city. It’s hard to imagine a sufficiently brisk trade for this in anything but the most over-magicked games … in which case, the prices aren’t warranted: if everybody has a longsword+1, they certainly are not going to be worth hundreds of gold pieces — that would be like mobile phones being worth tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. People like you and me (well, me, anyways) would happily trade them in for the cash.
The explanation of how monsters get items [snip] can be inferred based on how the game works. They either get it from defeating the last hero that tried to vanquish him, from raiding a village, eating travellers, etc. They use magic items primarily as tools; whether the via the intended use, or as a lure to attract more prey.
This is the circular reasoning I was referring to. Monsters get magic items from defeated heroes, who got them from monsters. Who got them from heroes. Who …
Well, I think you get the point. Why do these magical items exist, in the clutches of these monsters (or maybe just why do they exist — period)? It’s not an important question for all games, to be sure, but it often is in the good ones. Ones where the quests and characters form part of a bigger picture. Surely some idea of the how and why of magical items plays into this? Surely items with a story add more to the game than those that are nothing more than a bonus and/or effect?
The Dungeon Master’s Guide (DMG) and Magic Item Compendium (MIC) state that all towns will have items up to a limit in price that varies according to town size.
A failing of the game. All towns will probably have property for sale — although this property might easily be above the town’s “limit”. Small towns probably have lots of livestock — it might be easy to get a horse — but no weaponsmith. It could be hard to get a sword.
These guides are just that — guides. No time to think or plan — or perhaps, no desire to? Wave your hands. There’s a price limit. A shortcut. The D&D books — particularly the supplements — are full of them. They can be extremely useful when needed, but god-awful when they’re used as a crutch in place of creativity.
The general consensus is that characters sell items at the creation cost (with some variance according to rarity/demand) and buy at around the listed value (with some variance according to rarity/demand).
Who formed this general consensus. How did they come up with these numbers? My guess is that there are two numbers provided in the handbooks — a “cost of creation”, which represents the market price of the raw materials, and a “cost to buy”, which represents the market price of the item, if sold.
DMs then take the low number as the price the PCs can get, if selling, and the high price as the price PCs pay, if buying.
This does not make it so.
we can fairly readily accept the average price a character can sell an item is half what he can buy
Why can we readily accept this? If the cost associated with creating the item is half the “list price”, surely you can sell it for more than the cost of creation — the work of collecting the various (presumably hard-to-find) materials and to create the end item has already been done. The price you say seems to indicate that these actions have no intrinsic value — that’s a lie.
If I spend $40 on wood, nails, etc, and spend two days building a beautiful box, you can bet that I’m not selling it for $40. That’s just the cost of the wood and nails!
I suppose it is a fantasy setting, though. Maybe this is normal.
But if you play any fantasy based game, there are shops, and many of them.
If by “shops” you mean “magic shops”, this is simply not true.
Even if you do not mean this, and you intend it to simply mean shops of any variety, I would not be surprised if I could find a fantasy game where there are no shops. It would be a strange one, to be sure, and probably full of anti-capitalist propaganda. But it probably exists.
All the d20 based games incorporate a wide variety of shops, nearly all of them magical.
Now this one is simply untrue. d20 is a system — an open system, available to any game developer. Are you trying to tell me that every single game using the d20 system has magical shops?
The truth is that there is no requirement in D&D (or any game) to have a shop that sells magical items.
Such a shop often exists, however. It exists because it is a crutch for the DM — they do not have to put thought into what they give the characters. They can randomly generate treasure of the appropriate size, and let the players figure it out, trading in the stuff they don’t like for stuff they do like. Or they can go with whatever is in the pre-fabricated adventure as treasure, rather than making slight alterations to fit the characters that are going through the adventure.
A campaign where there is thought behind the magical items — what adds to the game? What fits the characters? What stories can I tell about it so that we don’t just call it a Battle Axe +3? How do they originate? — such a campaign is more interesting and engrossing than one that does not ask these questions.
And I continue to posit that the traditionally-imagined magic shop does not make sense in such a game. It exists only as a shortcut for players and DMs — it does not make a lick of sense, otherwise — and becomes unnecessary when these questions are being asked.
I think you’ve got this idea of ‘magic shops are not appropriate in a fantasy world’ idea, but you’ve not played let alone read through the material you’re arguing the idea against. You say you’ve seen the 1e and 2e books, but this cancels out 3e, 3.5e, and 4e where this concept is more appropriate.
This is the defining factor in our debate: I’m explaining things as per the rules for the 3e and 3.5e games. And you’re taking those statements out of context due to the lack of knowledge of game structure. If the rules explain that magic items are in abundance, and most monsters do have some magic items, and nearly all NPC (as classes) are expected to have some form of magic item, and all player characters expect to eventually have a magic item for each spot on their body… you’ve either got to accept that magic item shops are appropriate, or that we’re both arguing about different scenarios that cant be compared.
You’re right in one solid point in your spiel; and that is it’s sensible for some games to not incorporate magic shops. But this comes down to a DMs choice; and one that most players would scoff at. Why? Because the monsters in the game are ranked according to challenge based on the acceptance of a player having a certain amount of magic items on them at specific levels. Explained clearer; a level 7 character should be able to beat a monster with a challenge rating of 7. But if that player had no magical items (or few) that monster could then be nearly impossible to beat; such as a creature that can only be damaged with magical items.
Keep in mind that the term ’shops’ used above is used in the expansive sense; including all manner of methods to acquire magic items within a city.
Your comments on the circular nature of items changing hands, but ‘where do they come from’ ignore even statements you have already accepted; people make them. And not just humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, undead, dragons, fey, gnolls, goblins, giants, and a whole heap more. The monsters themselves make them! Certainly not all monsters.. but some do have the capacity of making magic items.
The focus on why monsters have items as an excuse for not having a shop is onerous and not entirely related. I brought this up as an example of how common these items were. To then question how the monsters get them sidesteps the issue.
I think you’ve missed the idea about making and selling prices. The rules are there to guide the process of players acquiring magic items; whether via buying them (which includes having someone make it), or via making it themselves. The guides are not indicative of how a player can set up a manufacturing business in magic item creation. Keep the arguments in context.
If you had a look at the rules for players with strongholds and castles, you’d also see that profit and loss are equal. The players cannot make a profit from their castle without the DM making adjustments for it.
Also, taking things to the extreme by referring magic item shops to walmart isn’t helping your argument. It’s a fallacy; logic-chopping. A magic item shop could have anywhere between 5 and 20 items (maybe more in larger shops), but that’s just how I play. Other DMs may have hundreds of items to choose from.
As for referring the DnD world to video games.. some of them are based on the same system. D20 games like neverwinter nights, baldurs gate, icewind dale, etc utilise the same rules in the books. So my comparison to them is fair. And saying I should just play a PC game rather than via table top is a faulty argument; lack of proportion.
So to throw back some reasoning to you;
How does a character sell collected magic items, or make use of his hoard of gold? Keeping in mind that mundane items are extremely cheap compared to the amount of gold collected adventuring. If you start to argue that there’s some interested party who wants to buy or sell a few items, then you’re on the borderline of accepting the idea of a shop; you’ve just taken one step along that path.
But do answer the question. How can a player (an adventurer) use his 100,000 gold coins, and dispose of his 15 or so minor magic items, 5 decent ones, and 2 very good but still useless to him items (keeping the usable ones for himself)? What other game dynamic would allow for this?
@Darkelven
you’ve not played let alone read through the material you’re arguing the idea against. You say you’ve seen the 1e and 2e books, but this cancels out 3e, 3.5e, and 4e where this concept is more appropriate.
I have not really read, and barely played 3E and 3.5 — however I have read and played 4E; just not as thoroughly as I would have in the 1980s. I have better things to do now than read bits of books on roleplaying games that do not readily apply to the game I’m running.
This is the defining factor in our debate: I’m explaining things as per the rules for the 3e and 3.5e games. And you’re taking those statements out of context due to the lack of knowledge of game structure.
Sorry … are you still the fellow who said “read things in the best light possible” above? This reads as “I’m right and you’re ignorant”. Neither of these are true.
We have a difference in opinion. I like my world and my NPCs — even those as unimportant as shopkeepers — to function in an understandable manner, rather than an arbitrary one. The standard D&D Magic Shop does not function in such a manner, and none of your arguments have illustrated otherwise to me.
That is the crux of this debate.
4E D&D often feels too computer-gamey to me in its execution — perhaps, in this sense, your comparison earlier was apt. Having “slots” for magical items, for example. What happens if you put on two magical necklaces? Or a pair of magical gauntlets over magical gloves?
These actions are simply “not allowed” by the rules (IIRC – I’m not about to run off to consult the rulebooks; I’ve already got a home-brewed solution to this that i like). But what happens when a player tries it?
This adherence to behaviour-defining rules is the basic concept that you appear to be arguing, though. But whether or not a particular character puts a hat on, on top of their helmet, or opens Ye Olde Magickal Curiosities Shoppe is actually a decision-making moment; a roleplaying moment. A knowledge of — and adherence to — the rules is not the making or breaking point here. It is about the character, the game, and the personal decision.
you’ve either got to accept that magic item shops are appropriate, or that we’re both arguing about different scenarios that cant be compared.
A false dichotomy. I need not accept either of these.
You are arguing that magical items:
a) Are so common that everybody has at least once.
b) Are so valuable that they can be sold for the equivalent of ten years’ income (for your average person in the fantasy world)
I am saying that these two things just don’t fit. Why do these people keep these items and not sell the at the local shop?
You are arguing that:
a) Heroes get magical items off monsters.
b) Monsters get magical items off heroes.
c) There is this mysterious surplus of these items, forcing the heroes to sell their magical items to stores for huge sums of money because they don’t have enough space for them.
d) Despite this strange and huge surplus in magical items, they’re still way, way, way more expensive than their marginally-less-magical counterparts. A long sword +1 is worth what … 400 gp (or something similar) in 4E?
Why pay that? Is it that hard to kill an orc? Is it worth it for a +1 bonus, but nothing else? If not, why do magic shops happily pay 200 gp for them? How do they stay in business? Are they some sort of adventurer charity?
Oh, no … sorry. The Player’s Handbook (4E) gives a monetary value and says that there’s lots of magic in the world. That means my game can be happily inconsistent.
I think you’ve missed the idea about making and selling prices. The rules are there to guide the process of players acquiring magic items; whether via buying them (which includes having someone make it), or via making it themselves. The guides are not indicative of how a player can set up a manufacturing business in magic item creation. Keep the arguments in context
So let me get this straight … the high price is for buying the item (or having it made). The low one is for making it. Correct?
And I’m taking things out of context by suggesting that the low price is for the materials required to make the item. Correct?
Or do NPCs get to make the magical items for half the price again? What am I missing here? Or are PC’s efforts only to be rewarded if there’s killing involved?
If you had a look at the rules for players with strongholds and castles, you’d also see that profit and loss are equal. The players cannot make a profit from their castle without the DM making adjustments for it.
Not going to bother to read these rules, but again … why not? Oh, sorry. Because the rules say so.
How does a character sell collected magic items, or make use of his hoard of gold?
The answers to these questions are: However they would like to. I want to sell my used pajamas. Before the invention of eBay, how would I have done that? I look for a buyer — it does not imply the existence of a used pajamas shop.
Admitting that used pajamas might not be as valuable as magical talking swords, let’s think about something very valuable but of use to a limited portion of the population who are by nature transient, nomadic and short-lived. OK … nothing comes quite to mind. But a few examples that are closer to the mark:
Fine art. Where do you go for this? Usually auctions from reputed auction houses. You do not simply go into a fine art store and ask for a Picasso. Alternatively, you could approach someone directly.
Helicopters. Where do you go for this? There are specialised companies that make them. You put out a tender, and have them bid to make helicopters for you.
Professional basketball players. Players want to sell themselves. They get themselves a specialised agent, who contacts interested teams to find out how much they might offer to buy the player.
There are no helicopter stores. No professional sports player stores. Not that there couldn’t be — they would just be incredibly unsuccessful. How many people have both the need for a given item in the magic store? Why is it available so readily?
If you wandered into a cave and found something that was very cool, strange, and rare — where would you sell it? How would you sell it?
The magic shop is about convenience. There is nothing plausible about it, and it adds nothing to the game that I can see.
What other game dynamic would allow for this?
This is just it — this is not something that requires a “game dynamic”. It simply requires a few creative players sitting around the table, roleplaying. They will figure it out, if you let them — and are willing to say “yes” to their wacky ideas, within reason. Along the way they might meet some interesting NPCs or a twist in the plot.
And they may even have fun.
This debate isn’t going anywhere, and the further we argue about it, the more angst we’ll bring up. What bothers me the most is that you’ve made a bold claim about something you don’t even properly understand/know about/play. Sure you’ve looked into the earlier and latest versions, but those incorporate the least roleplaying. 4e does have the feel of a computer game; and there are arguments that it was made with this in mind.
I’m writing this here to say that I got half way through your post before getting fed up with your petty arguments. All the people I know that play incorporate shops, the people I talk to that play have some form of shop or magic item transfer system. To suggest that they shouldn’t be there is lunacy! Read the rules before you start to get upset about that claim!!!
All said, you’ve started a debate without a thorough knowledge of what you’re talking about, not listened to the advice given, and gone so far as to ridicule the way it works.
The big problem is that I’ve made attempts to suggest that each person should run the game their own way (yes! if you want to run a game without magic shops, fine), but you have gone beyond this to say that if anyone doesn’t conform to your views, they’re doing it wrong. My efforts here were to suggest that magic item shops weren’t illogical for people to use.
So, after this rant, I’ll not be checking back here to continue what has degraded so far as to be pointless. Your arguments do not relate to the game; purely because you don’t have a clear understanding of how it works. You’re working from faulty assumptions.
@Darkelven
You may not be reading, but I still have responses:
you’ve made a bold claim about something you don’t even properly understand/know about/play.
I do play it, and I feel that I understand and know about it.
Your arguments however ignore my points, and are full of logical fallacies. To be fair, some of your points are perfectly valid, but by no means do these points have a universal application across all D&D games for all people.
Nor have you shocked me with any rules or points you have brought up. Other than quoting rules about players earning money on real estate investments, they have not caused me to be out of my depth at any point regarding my knowledge of the rules.
This is possibly because I have read the pertinent bits of all but two versions of the core D&D rulebooks ever written. Those two versions, to you, form a foundation for my ignorance — particularly when combined with having skimmed large portions of 4E (mostly the Monster’s Manual, though also some race & class stuff that isn’t currently used in my game).
Most of all, I am simply disappointed that you cannot accept my point of view. It seems that you do not care to understand it — you just want me to admit you are right, and that I am stupid.
Sure you’ve looked into the earlier and latest versions, but those incorporate the least roleplaying.
Rule systems do not roleplay by themselves. Players roleplay. Systems can encourage roleplaying to various degrees. Also — where does this come from, and what does it have to do with anything?
I’m writing this here to say that I got half way through your post before getting fed up with your petty arguments.
Earlier, quoting you: surely you know to read peoples comments in the best light, otherwise you cannot expect to get the same in return – a common courtesy
I am not sure why you insist on calling my arguments — which are essentially about economics and the motivations of Player and Non-player characters — petty. (Nor am I sure why you thought I read them in a bad light originally — I fact that I apologised for.)
What is petty is making attacks against the other person — claiming them to be ignorant. I would appreciate if your (inevitable) reply would return this to civil discourse. On to your points:
All said, you’ve started a debate without a thorough knowledge of what you’re talking about, not listened to the advice given, and gone so far as to ridicule the way it works.
Not true. I started by writing a post expounding my thoughts on possibilities of the origin of magical items, while wondering about whether the existence of a magical shop is a “realistic” one (at least, as far as a pretend shop in a fantasy world can be realistic).
You entered, started ranting about the numbers I threw around in the post (I still feel that I grossly overestimated the population capable of generating magical items, by-the-by), and then switched tack and started going on about rules.
This was never about rules. It’s about a concept that has found its way into mainstream Dungeons and Dragons, but for which it is questionable if it could actually exist at all — neither the supply nor the demand side appear to be sufficient for a shop.
Anyways … on to your arguments.
All the people I know that play incorporate shops, the people I talk to that play have some form of shop or magic item transfer system.
Appeal to authority.
Really, the second option “magic item transfer system” sounds awesomely ominous. There can be some very fun things that go along with this phrase. “These Drow? They’re from the Magic Item Transfer Society. They’re part of The System. I believe that you are now due to give me that Ring of Animal Friendship.” Such a system — particularly if controlled (in whole or part) by shady characters provides the characters with what they need, but can build up into excellent moral dilemmas, plot twists, and roleplaying opportunities.
In short — exactly the type of thing that I am looking for. It becomes believable. It becomes tangible. It becomes special. Magic ought to be magical.
I’ve gone off-track. Where was I? Ah, your points that completely lack supporting arguments:
To suggest that they shouldn’t be there is lunacy! Read the rules before you start to get upset about that claim!!!
The rules say the DM must include a magic shop? Or that not including one is lunacy? Have a book and page reference for that? We’re talking about a game that has been around in six different editions (and multiple printings and expansions on most of those editions) over 40 years.
Not to mention Dragon magazines, et cetera, et cetera.
Hence “read the rules” as a response about D&D is a little pointless. There’s just so many of them. I’ve read enough of them, and more than most people.
My efforts here were to suggest that magic item shops weren’t illogical for people to use.
And I have stated the same — magic shops work for some people. That’s fine. I don’t like them, and feel that the arguments for incorporating them are short cuts.
Short cuts aren’t bad. Let’s get that straight. They are often useful and sometimes necessary.
But you have been saying things like: To suggest that they shouldn’t be there is lunacy! — hardly “to each their own”. Your arguments are often along the lines of “you must not have read this” and “you clearly do not understand that”.
This is disrespect. Is it any wonder that it makes me argumentative? Rather than respecting my opinions (and in my own space, no less!), you tell me that they’re shit. Hardly a constructive starting point.
Despite that, I have elucidated my points — respectfully, for the most part — and responded to yours.
I said earlier, as I say now, if magic stores work for you and your game: go ahead.
They bothered me as having something wrong about them when I was 8 or 9. They still do now. I do not use them, but understand that there must be some sort of trade in them going on.
My question — if I really had one — would be: How, given my starting point and my reservations, can I make such a system work?
You’re working from faulty assumptions.
I do not think so.
I assume that something being possible does not make it probable.
I assume that just because something is allowable within the framework of the rules does not mean that it would make sense for a character — PC or NPC — to do that thing.
I assume that the DM is the arbiter of these facts, I am not the only one who thinks in this manner, and that pondering the motivations behind them, the origins of magical items, and the stories they have to tell can only enrich the gaming experience — so long as it is not done at the expense of other pieces of the game which are (subjectively) considered to be more important by those involved.
These are ideas that I base my arguments on. They are not dependent on a rule that tells me that magic item X is worth 1,000 gp, magic item Y 15,400 gp, and a town of this size has available for sale any object below a price of 223,450 gp.
Which of these is faulty? If none, what assumptions are you attributing to me, which you believe are faulty?